Written by: Dr. Amy Beckley, PhD, Founder and Inventor of the Proov test — the first and only FDA-cleared test to confirm successful ovulation at home.
Written by: Dr. Amy Beckley, PhD, Founder and Inventor of the Proov test — the first and only FDA-cleared test to confirm successful ovulation at home.
Written on 12/10/20
Updated on 5/21/21
Amy Beckley:
Right. Hello everybody. I am Amy Beckley, founder and CEO of Proov. And here is another edition of the Proov podcast. We're all about empowering women about their fertility and giving them amazing resources and education to help move them forward. So it is my pleasure to welcome Monica Friedman of Monica Friedman coaching with us today. So welcome, Monica, could you tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do?
Monika Friedman:
Sure. Thank you so much Amy for having me and for this amazing platform. So yeah, I'm a fertility coach. I've gone through my own fertility issues like so many have. It took me five years, four rounds of IVF, 12 rounds of ovulation induction and the one miscarriage to finally have my baby or my daughter who is now a toddler. And I felt so passionate about helping others walk this path with more knowledge, with more tools, with more peace of mind. So that's what I do now. I hope clients with emotional lifestyle and practical support on their fertility journey.
Amy:
Okay. I really want you to elaborate a wonder fertility coach is, like what kind of things do you train on? How do you get certified? Like what kind of resources do you offer? Just to give our listeners that additional piece of information. So go ahead.
Monika:
So I trained as a life coach and a health coach. I trained with Erickson International in Canada. I also trained as a Freedom Fertility Specialist in the UK. So these things really make up the basics, but on top of that, I'm a meditation and yoga teacher for many years. So I had a lot of these elements. I add a lot of the mind body practices into my coaching approach.
And then obviously, I look or draw on my own experience in, especially in the IVF field on how to get ready for treatment, all the, you know, the red flowers, the frequently asked questions. Some insider tips on how to deal with those side effects. And then really some research that I do every single day, because I'm so interested, but also as part of my client work on what are the cutting edge treatments that you may not know off.
And that was an important part for my fertility journey. I had to think out of the box a little bit. So it's really a well-rounded holistic package of Western medicine and Eastern medicine. I mean, the mind-body approach of how the mind can impact the biological functioning and the reproductive functioning and then the Western medicine approach.
Obviously I'm not a doctor, however I can help with understanding the treatment processes better. Research has shown that the more we are educated about what's happening on a medical level, the more we can calm our nervous system and the better the actual outcome can be. So there was research that has shown that we can have up to 20% more follicles if we are in, or if we feel in control and calm and confident about the treatment process. So yeah, I look at it from a holistic approach.
Most women come to me because they need someone to listen to them because this journey, as you know, is so isolating and so lonely, they just need someone who's not emotionally attached to them in their outcome, to listen to them and to give a very objective opinion. And so that's number one.
Number two is someone to hold them accountable in terms of the lifestyle changes. So let's say diet exercise, exposure to toxins. And number three, the most common reason, is really getting their bodies ready for another round of IVF bodies and mind, really. So with most of my clients, they're around, let's say 38 to 42 years old.
We work on egg health, improving health. And again, we know that studies have shown that we can improve our egg health or the quality, especially the mitochondrial function through lifestyle changes. Some supplements, I always made sure that my clients check if they take any supplements, they check in with their doctors first.
So yeah, those are the main three reasons why clients come to me. And I started this because I really would have needed a fertility coach six years ago. I felt so alone in this, I felt so misunderstood. And the emotional toll that this takes is something that I just, I had to do it on my own. I reached out to therapists. I reached out to, you know, energy healers, but they never quite got the fertility part. They never quite understood what it meant to go through fertility treatment or to experience a loss. So that's where, that's where I'm trying to fill a gap almost.
Amy:
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. We've had a couple of reproductive endocrinologists on the show. We have a medical advisory board that, I mean, these people are so, so smart. And I kind of had this revelation that it's like, they're so smart and they know everything about IVF and like sperm counts, motility and fragmentation and DNA. And this test, and this test as well as, blah, blah, blah.
And they almost come in thinking that you already know how to balance your lifestyle and then you know what to do. And so it's not something that they teach. It's kind of something that they go straight over. And so, you know, what we're trying to do, what you're trying to do is fill that gap is, you know, if you haven't been successful conceiving, a lot of times you don't need to just jump straight to IVF. You need a little bit of knowledge.
And self-awareness, this is such a buzzword right now. And I actually don't like it, but it's very true is, you know, empowering yourself with more knowledge. It's like all these companies like, Oh, you empower yourself this and that. And it's like this buzzword, but it's true. It's having that knowledge and that insight, somebody on Instagram and I don't remember who it was. It was like, there's 92 different ways you can be infertile, like 92 different ways.
And it's like, if you go into a doctor and you're like, I'm infertile, they're going to be like, all right, I'm going to take out my notepad. I'm going to go through all night on 92. It's like, well, that's going to take forever. And it's going to be really, really hard. So why not, I like to say, you know, the most common things, which are, you know, you need an egg, you need a sperm, you need them to meet. If you can check off three of those boxes, you're like 90% will get pregnant.
Monika:
Right.
Amy:
And a lot of it is that egg. And it's what you talked about. It's, it's the mind-body, it's the, you know how do we improve quality? Cause it's not just about the egg, it's about the hormones that support ovulation as well. To really make sure that every single time you try to get those two to meet that you're, giving it the best chance at conception.
Monika:
Yeah. I love what you just said about, “You don't always have to jump to IVF,” and I know that probably resonates well with you because it reflects your own story. So before I want to ask you about your own story, cause I think it's so fascinating. It is so true. We're often pushed, not pushed, but we think that IVF is the last resort, but there are so many things we can do before that.
However, we need to know, and we need to be empowered. I'm using that buzzword again, to know how we go about it because we're busy, lives are busy. And oftentimes we start with those family planning quite late in our thirties, so we don't have plenty of time. So there are definitely things we can do, but so tell me about your story. So you did IVF for your first child, right?
Amy:
Yeah. So I have a ten-year-old son, we had about four to five losses. You know, we're told IVF was the only option, you know, everything came back normal, you know, tubes open, sperm fine, and all that stuff. And so we did IVF and, when he was about two, I was like, okay, I'm going to try this again, but I don't want to do IVF.
And I just kind of just started charting and doing basal body temperature and had conversations with my doctor. And I was like, I think I have a short luteal phase. And you know, I don't want to do IVF, but can we just pretend I did IVF and just give me the progesterone therapy after ovulation and see if that helps. And so they just basically supported my luteal phase with progesterone suppositories. And within a couple of cycles, I was pregnant. I stayed pregnant and my daughter is now seven. And I was like, wow, that's incredible that it's like, that we could've missed that.
And it's not that there was anything let's see, how do I say this? It wasn't that they were doing anything wrong. It's just the proper diagnosis wasn't available yet. And so that led me to, to invent Proov because my cycle day 21 progesterone levels were fine. They weren't wonderful, but they were fine. They showed that I was ovulating. But they weren't through the roof and they weren't super low, but I would crash a couple of days later. And so it just wasn't enough time for the egg to go from the ovary all the way down the fallopian to get fertilized and implant uterus before I'm getting my next period
Monika:
I love that little image in the back. That's because it shows it quite well. Right. So before the egg was actually able to implant, your uterine lining was breaking down already, right? .
Amy:
Correct. So the journey between when the egg is actually released or that, you know, the positive ovulation test and the time it takes to get through the fallopian tube to get fertilized and to get into the uterus and have a good attachment is, is seven to 10 days. And so if the time between LH positive and your period is less than 10 days, it is a problem. Ideally you want at least 12, I was, seven or eight days, maybe nine on a good cycle.
And so sometimes I would get that positive pregnancy test and it would just, you know, my embryo would not have a good hold and I would lose it. And so it was just a, weak ovulation, insufficient ovulation, a problem with ovulation, there's all these different kinds of words. And so that's how we, why we developed Proov was to really get out that high enough long enough kind of piece of the puzzle. Where it's like one point in time measure is not as effective as if you've measured it on the entire seven to 10 day window to make sure that you have enough and it's remaining high. And you have the highest percent chance of conception.
So it's kind of this idea of ovulation and making sure, because it's not like an LH surge where you just need immediate surge and then you ovulate. It's like you have to have this prolonged hormone in order to get that uterus right. It stabilizes it, but it also creates receptors on the wall of the uterus that make it so it's sticky so the embryo can implant and to thrive.
Monika:
Right.
Amy:
So with that, they've done studies where we'll take my Surrats and they'll take out the ovaries ovariectomized as they call it. And see if they get pregnant, they can't, they just can't, they don't have any progesterone. They can not get pregnant.
Monika:
Right. One question I get from my clients a lot is how long should you take the progesterone for? Because it's a bit of a lifeline then.
Amy:
Yeah, no that's an interesting one. So, I don't know if there's a real answer. What I like to say is what you said before, is the more you feel confident and control the better you are. So for example, most studies show that the placenta takes over progesterone production at about seven or eight weeks, and that you just need to be on that progesterone from ovulation until about eight weeks of pregnancy, and then you can come off of it.
But in reality, most doctors tell you the entire first trimester to make sure that you can actually produce enough. It's more of a question of the patient, the woman, not the science, right. There are some women that are on progesterone, their entire pregnancy. So if your progesterone drops at any point during your pregnancy, you're either going to have a miscarriage or you're going to have preterm labor, and it's like, there are women and it's not a ton, but there are women that need progesterone injections their entire pregnancy.
Monika:
Right.
Amy:
And so women come to me and they say, “Hey, I'm on progesterone. Should I stop taking it at 14 weeks or 12 weeks or 10 weeks or my doctor said this or that or the other.” Now I'm like, “Well, what do you think? What do you think?” You're in control, this is your pregnancy. If you take it longer, it's not going to hurt you. It's like, as one of our medical advisors says, it's like throwing water into the ocean. It's fine. It's not gonna cause any problems.
And so if they're apprehensive about it, I say, go get a blood draw. Go make sure you are naturally producing enough progesterone before you wean yourself off. If you want to keep taking them great, if you want to stop them early, great. You have the knowledge to ask the right questions, to get that information, to make you mentally able to accept that.
You know, the ones that have had losses like for me, Oh man, I was on progesterone almost my entire pregnancy, because I was like, this is like the secret sauce. Why would I stop taking this? No way. Did I need it? Probably not. But for my mental wellbeing, which is really, really important. I mean, to feel like it's like conception is something that you can't really control. Right? Conception, pregnancy, all those things. It's like you just don't have the control. You're like, are you doing okay? And they're like are we good? No idea. But it's like, if you can say, I'm just going to take some progesterone and that's going to give me some control, I support it. I mean, like I said, it's not bad. It's never bad. It's either not going to do anything or it's going to help.
Monika:
Right. I fully agree with you. I love what you just said. It's all about feeling that you are doing something that's inside of your control and that relates back to the mind body connection, where if we can calm our nervous system and let our nervous system know that we're paid, that we're surviving, because at the end of the day, we're still cave women afraid being attacked by or eaten by a tiger. Then we can tell our body that we're fine and it can keep producing whatever it's producing.
Also I agree with you that fertility is kind of a black box. We're throwing so many things at the wall, hoping something will stick. And I just want to share with all the listeners here that I personally think that a lot of these things are on the market, including Proov are fantastic ways to educate yourself and also to check off these boxes. Fertility is a black box. We don't really know what might be happening unless we have a blatant, obvious issue.
But especially for those, with unexplained infertility, there were so many things, including Proov on the market that I wish I had six or seven years ago that would have just helped me get through this journey a little bit quicker, with a lot more insight, with a lot more knowledge, with a lot more data. So I could go to the next physician or RE and say, look, this is what I found. Let's do this, just like you did. I love that. You said, let's just get the idea, let's just do the suppository. It's really an invitation to all of you out there. Take matters into your own hands, if you can, because that will benefit you in many more ways than you think. Not just your fertility.
Amy:
If you're going to go to that doctor, you have a very limited amount of time to speak with them. The more things that you can check off the list; nope, not an issue, not an issue, might be an issue and you could guide that conversation the better. Absolutely.
Monika:
We have a very deep intuition or sixth sense that often gets lost during the fertility journey or in our busy lives, because we rely on so much external information or decisions, but I work with my clients a lot to get their intuition back and try and allow them to trust their intuition again. Because I truly believe that we have the answer somewhere within us that we sometimes just need to listen more and then act on it.
Amy:
Absolutely. Follow your heart. And that's going back to the progesterone question, what does your heart tell you? Is it going to make you feel more safe, secure and balanced and mentally capable to be pregnant if you're on progesterone? Okay. IVF is a huge medical band-aid. IVF is like, we have absolutely no idea what's wrong. Well, sometimes I know what's wrong with you, but we're just going to not take any chances. You don't need tubes. We'll just take the egg out. You don't need modal sperm. We'll just inject it. They do everything, like replace all the hormones with different hormones. Right.
And so they take all the variables out as many as possible to get you pregnant. Right. Well, why can't we do that without IVF? If it's, do I have low progesterone? Maybe, let's take some progesterone just in case. Same thing with supplements and multivitamins and people that haven't done the genetic testing to see if they metabolize folate very well. I'm just going to take the vitamin. That's got the extra folate right. It's easy enough to do. Let's make sure that it's not an issue.
Monika:
You've been on the market for how long? A couple of years.
Amy:
Three years.
Monika:
Three years. Wow. And can you tell us a little bit about the feedback you've gotten from the people who have used Proov, and obviously on Instagram, you have beautiful babies there and their Proov outfits. What's been their feedback? How often do you think that Proov has been the missing ingredient? Can you quantify that?
Amy:
Quantify it, no, because there's different ways that people can benefit from Proov. The most obvious is you identify that I'm not ovulating properly. I go to my doctor, they prescribe whatever medication, whether that be Clomid, Femara, letrozole, progesterone, whatever it is that got me pregnant, that's the most obvious. Other ways are, you just didn't know what was going on. And you just let me check that box, which put me in a better mental capacity.
Like, you know, it was like, I didn't know if I was actually ovulating and I am ovulating. That's amazing. And that little bit of a switch to being like, Oh, I feel so out of control and being like, Oh my God actually did that. They'll get pregnant right away and know it was that piece of information. And that's a little bit of a mental thing. We've helped people that think that it was ovulation and it wasn't. So we've helped them say, okay, well, what next? Oh, we'll go look at sperm. Oh my gosh, it was a male factor.
Like I never would have thought that, so there's a lot of different ways that Proov can help. I would say over 90% of women that use Proov have a positive experience with Proov. We talked about when you're more in the know and more empowered about your cycle, that's actually mentally calming. There's a fraction of people that it's not mentally calming.
And so when they get the results that are negative, they say, “Oh my gosh, this is never going to happen. I wish I never would have bought these. These are wrong.” They're blaming us when it's you who took the time to, to purchase a product and to learn about your body which is telling you something really important. And it's not going to listen to that so you have to be mindful of those people that actually want to be in the dark. They'd rather not know. They want to just think everything's fine and it's scary. When you get a negative test everything is horrible. Never getting pregnant.
But what I like to say is of all the things that could possibly be wrong and why you're not conceiving, ovulatory problems are the easiest ones to fix. It's the cheapest, it's the quickest and it's the least invasive. And if that's why you're not conceiving, that is a really, really good news because that's super easy to fix. As long as you knew what the problem was. Sperm issues, not so easy, that’s like IVF or IUI, that's expensive. There’s stuff in your uterus, that's a surgery. Tubes not working, that's IVF. Like those are all scary, but it wouldn't be like it's just an ovulatory issue. Sweet. I could totally do that. I'll work with a fertility coach and I'll get my diet and mind right. I'll ask my doctors for progesterone or ovulation inducing medications. It's super easy.
Monika:
I appreciate that. And now I saw that you launched another product, which is basically a composite.
Amy:
The Predict and Confirm kit! So basically what that is; it's an ovulation test and a Proov test in the same box. And so what we can do is we can help you time intercourse so that's the ovulation tests. So when you have positive ovulation tests, that's when the egg is being released from the ovary. It tells you when to have intercourse on your two most fertile days. And then once you do that, you switch over to the PDG tests, which measure the progesterone metabolites in urine that can tell you if you successfully ovulated.
And so by putting everything in the same box, the same instructions, you can really guide a woman to say here, step one, step two, step three, push your results on this little chart. We have an app that can help you read the results and it's very easy. Everything looks good, or it doesn't look good, go, reach out. Here's some other resources.
Monika:
Honestly, this wasn't around six to seven years ago. I really wish I'd had access to all these things, but it took me longer. Now we know here's one question I get all the time with regards to your peak fertility. Maybe you can shed some light on it. So women go by their LH or peak LH or by their peak cervical mucus. What's the better predictor?
Amy:
That's a really tough question. If you look at LH, the majority of women will ovulate when their LH and their serum is 20 IU/mL. And what happens is some people spike really quickly and by the time it goes through the urine and it shows up on an ovulation test, there's about 20% of women that have actually ovulated before they get a positive ovulation test.
So then there's, if people have like, PCOS, that will get the positive ovulation tests and not actually ovulate. And so cervical mucus is a really, really good marker of ovulation. I use the kegg tracker. I don't know if you've seen these things, but it's a little device that measures cervical mucus because I have a horrible time tracking it. It just, I don't have any external cervical mucus, but cervical mucus usually will be fertile. And it'll dry up the day before you, or the day or day before you ovulate. Right.
So I'll have really good cervical mucus. And the next day is when I'll get the LH surge. Now I have a theory that I'm one of those early ovulators that by the time my LH strip is already positive, my cervical mucus has dried up and I've already actually ovulated, and so I kind of knew that about myself or have that theory. And so I always made sure I had intercourse every other day until I got the positive and then that day and the next day. Right. And so, you know, monitoring cervical mucus, doing the Clearblue Advanced Digitals that measures estrogen as well. Those are two really good things to kind of extend out that for a window, waiting for that positive ovulation test, 20% of the time you could have already missed it.
Monika:
Right. I think this information is so key. I, again, as I said, at the beginning of this recording, I think we were, we were being pushed or pushed ourselves to IVF way too early way too soon. And we, if we knew all this, then we could do a lot more homework and give ourselves two to three months to really hone in on our cycle, understand our bodies intimately well, which is a nice side product or side effect of infertility anyway. And just try that way. As you say it, it can happen that way. It can definitely happen as you say, this is probably the easiest thing to fix ourselves.
Amy:
Yeah. That's, it.
Monika:
That's really empowering. I think the theme of this, this recording today should be empowerment. I know that's a buzzword, but it's so important.
Amy:
I mean, it's such a good word and it's totally true, but it's like, all these companies like empowering you to [inaudible] and it's like, women are like, yeah. Whatever, whatever.
Monika:
But this is about our fertility and this is about our, it's not just fertility. It's about our life dreams. It's about our, our future and about how we want to live our lives and how we want to get there for some IVFs, just out of the question, it's too invasive and it's not feasible financially. So I think this is a wonderful way to find a midway.
Amy:
I mean, we have people you know, this is really real and very raw that are like, “Oh my gosh, $30. I'm not going to pay that. That's ridiculous.” I'm not, you know, and I'm like, do you understand that IVF is like at least $10,000. I'm sure you've seen this too as a fertility coach? Why would I pay somebody hundreds of dollars or whatever it is. To do this? Like, what do they know? Like, why can I just go to a doctor? And it's like, do you know what one hour with a reproductive endocrinologist costs? They're gonna, they're gonna assume that, you know, all this knowledge coming in, right. They're going to say, it's like, if you go to a chiropractor, they're going to give you chiropractic care. You go to a surgeon, they're going to suggest surgery. You go to an IVF center, they're going to tell you IVF.
So it's like, if that's not your goal or is that not something you want to do or in your wheelhouse or you haven't, you're like, I don't think, you know, IVF, this is in my heart right now. Don't go there, go to somebody like a fertility coach, go to a naturopathic doctor. Like, what are these, these other places? Because if you go to a reproductive endocrinologist expect that that's the pathway you're going to go down.
Monika:
Absolutely. Interesting, what you said about the cost. Cause I see that, I see it more as an investment in our health and self-care is another buzz word. But so true. I spent so much money on my journey on anyone under those sun, natural healer nutritionists therapists, couples, counselors let alone all the doctors. I spent a fortune and honestly, yes, it was hard at the time, but I don't regret it because they all helped me in their own way. And they again gave me the tools that I know which next best step to take. And that was so key at the point, they all gave me hope in their own way. So I think it's also about the opportunity costs. If you spend money for this test right now, or for this coaching session, what could you maybe avoid? But I look at it as an investment in yourself in understanding yourself better and taking really good care of you.
Amy:
No, absolutely. And like one thing that we kind of advocate around too, is if you're going to go to a reproductive endocrinologist, they have this arbitrary timeline for you. Like you have to have been trying for 12 months, you've have to have at least like three losses. Like there's this, you have to fit this box for us to come see you.
And it was like, no, that shouldn't be, it shouldn't be how it is. You should have this, you know, whenever. And so when we set out to create this product, it's gotta be on Amazon. It's gotta be at Target. Like it's gotta be where you are shopping. It's gotta be there. It's, there's no like red tape. There's no like person, you gotta go see to see this. Like, no, you are the woman you get access to and relation.
You know, and so, you know, fertility, coaches, I love it because you don't have to wait any time. You can be like, you know what, I'm just going to take my last pill today. And tomorrow I'll be off birth control. I think I want to try to conceive, to get turned away by traditional doctors. But to have somebody in your corner that can help you, like through it, like that's huge, it's huge. We call it the pit of despair where it's here, you are on day one. Every negative test is just lower and lower and lower. And it's like, once you get to the bottom, that's when you can have help. It's crazy. It's actually crazy.
Monika:
I love what you just said. We're in your corner. And I think that's exactly what this community is representing. All these practitioners or all these services that are cropping up, what yours and mine they're relatively new to them, to the market. However, they have one thing in common. We are in a corner, we are on your side and we want to help you almost make better decisions. So yeah, it's an exciting time for sure. There's a lot of change and there's, it's a good change for all of you ladies out there.
Amy:
Yeah. So, in the couple of minutes we have left. Walk us through what it took to get your daughter.
Monika:
Oh God. It took me five years of trying everything. I basically ended up doing four rounds of IVF and the fourth round, took, I was on, I took so much progesterone. I was taking Viagra for the lining of the womb. I did immunotherapy for elevated natural killer cells.
So again, fertility is a big black box. I don't know what helped in the end. But I'm just so grateful and it was a journey. I always say, infertility is the best teacher I ever had, but the one that I didn't ask for, and that's exactly right. I learned so much about myself, about compassion, about perspective in life about my own body and mind and I'm a mom now and that's just the best thing in the world. And I want to share that. But I really wish that women out there don't have to make it such a long journey.
I know I could have short, I could have short cut out journey, but at least one or two years if I hadn't been misdiagnosed, if I had done a few things myself earlier if I hadn't sabotage my own fertility through lifestyle choices that I made, that I had no idea were impacting my fertility, such as over exercising, too few calories, or maybe not the right foods for your hormone profiles. So there are a lot of things I just didn't know and that I now educated myself about.
Amy:
That's awesome. That's awesome. I see so many people in this field that we're all a product of this horrible experience that we're like, man, if we had just known, all right, cool. I'm going to teach other people. You know I've told you, I've had seven losses in this entire process and you know, that was my inspiration. That was my way to give back. I’m not, I mean, my husband has a vasectomy because we're done. It's not like it's, I'm not doing this for me to meet the child. I'm doing this because other people deserve this information. And the way that I can, bad word to say, but justify their loss or to give meaning to their loss is what started to help prevent the pain that other women or other couples are suffering right now.
Monika:
Do you mind if I become a little bit political here, I just want to share something that Biden said in one of his debates, he said cause he had he lost his son and he said, the only way through grief is to find purpose. And I think that is very fitting.
Amy:
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. That's a hundred percent true is that, that was their purpose. Their purpose was not to be a living child, but was to help us guide this company and create a product that could help future generations. So sometimes we'll think of things as the worst, like the most difficult thing that I've ever gone through, to be honest and like to do it seven times was ridiculous. Is the only way I could get mentally passed, it was a, this was the bigger thing that they were here for, this is, this is what I have to do. And so —
Monika:
That gives me the shivers. Amy.
Amy:
I know it's crazy. Like I don't like to talk about it too much cause people like hmm, but it's like no, some higher right has guided me.
Monika:
I just want to say you don't have to be religious or spiritual for this. But there is, there are ways that you can reframe everything that happens in life to make it comprehensible for you. And that's your way, and that's beautiful and we all have our own way of dealing with what happens to us in life. Beautiful.
Amy:
All right. Well thank you for being here. I think I get a lot of questions about, what are fertility coaches? And how can they help and all this stuff. So I will a hundred percent direct them to this episode because I think it's really important to know that this is a resource that's available for all of our listeners, where can they find you?
Monika:
They can find me on Instagram, @monikafriedmancoaching, Monica with a K because I'm from Germany or my website, Monicafriedman.com. That's where I hang out.
Amy:
Alright, awesome. Thank you very much.
Monika:
All the best. And then we'll stay in touch.
Amy:
All right. Sounds good. Bye.
